From laura.lee.carlson at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 05:30:13 2008 From: laura.lee.carlson at gmail.com (Laura Carlson) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:30:13 -0500 Subject: [html4all] Fwd: Canvas API mailing list In-Reply-To: <20080317080416.GC556@sideshowbarker> References: <20080317080416.GC556@sideshowbarker> Message-ID: <1c8dbcaa0803170530s2c46f356wc5087385989f9579@mail.gmail.com> Hi, In case you missed it, there is a new Canvas mailing list. Best Regards, Laura --start forwarded message-- From: Michael Smith Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 3:04 AM Subject: Canvas API mailing list To: public-html at w3.org This is an FYI to let members of the HTML working group know that there is now a specific mailing list for discussion of the canvas API: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/ The address for the list is public-canvas-api at w3.org The existence of that list does not preclude anyone who chooses to do so from continuing to discuss the canvas API here on public-html or anywhere else where they care to discuss it. The list was created to facilitate focused discussion on the canvas API and to encourage participation in that discussion from graphics experts and others who may not be members of the HTML working group (and may not want to be). --end forwarded message-- -- Laura L. Carlson From faulkner.steve at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 04:29:42 2008 From: faulkner.steve at gmail.com (Steven Faulkner) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:29:42 +0000 Subject: [html4all] #headers back in HTML5 Message-ID: <55687cf80803210429j2154cbbyb4b16a65c6e92f8e@mail.gmail.com> good news if it stays. the way things work it could be gone again tomorrow. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#headers (inclusion noticed by someone who posted to the wai-ig list.) I have been keeping an eye on the htmlwg list, didn't see this announced or mentioned, did anybody else see anything? is it just me or does the re-inclusion without any recent debate or apparent mention of it within the working group seem a bit odd (as far a WG process is concerned)? -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/pipermail/list_html4all.org/attachments/20080321/d1f95673/attachment.html From hsivonen at iki.fi Fri Mar 21 05:05:00 2008 From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:05:00 +0200 Subject: [html4all] #headers back in HTML5 In-Reply-To: <55687cf80803210429j2154cbbyb4b16a65c6e92f8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <55687cf80803210429j2154cbbyb4b16a65c6e92f8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 21, 2008, at 13:29, Steven Faulkner wrote: > I have been keeping an eye on the htmlwg list, didn't see this > announced or mentioned, did anybody else see anything? It was not announced on a mailing list (most spec edits aren't). The email way to find out about would have been the mailing list for the svn commit diffs: http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/commit-watchers-whatwg.org > is it just me or does the re-inclusion without any recent debate or > apparent mention of it within the working group seem a bit odd (as > far a WG process is concerned)? Not really. The headers attribute was included as the result of the *research* and algorithm prototyping (mostly by Ben Millard and James Graham) inspired by the previous debate in the WG. There was a delay between the debate and the spec change due to the massive feedback queue. -- Henri Sivonen hsivonen at iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ From foliot at wats.ca Fri Mar 21 09:57:21 2008 From: foliot at wats.ca (John Foliot) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 09:57:21 -0700 Subject: [html4all] #headers back in HTML5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002d01c88b74$a4142530$bc3142ab@stanford.edu> Henri Sivonen wrote: > On Mar 21, 2008, at 13:29, Steven Faulkner wrote: >> I have been keeping an eye on the htmlwg list, didn't see this >> announced or mentioned, did anybody else see anything? > > It was not announced on a mailing list (most spec edits aren't). > > The email way to find out about would have been the mailing list for > the svn commit diffs: > http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/commit-watchers-whatwg.org > So in other words, once again changes to a W3C Draft spec are being announced outside of the W3C, with no notification to the interested W3C parties who are not part of the "other" group at WHAT WG Strange way to run a railroad... JF From lhs at malform.no Fri Mar 21 10:48:54 2008 From: lhs at malform.no (Leif Halvard Silli) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 18:48:54 +0100 Subject: [html4all] #headers back in HTML5 In-Reply-To: References: <55687cf80803210429j2154cbbyb4b16a65c6e92f8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47E3F506.7070201@malform.no> Henri Sivonen 08-03-21 13.05: ? > On Mar 21, 2008, at 13:29, Steven Faulkner wrote: > > I have been keeping an eye on the htmlwg list, didn't see this > > announced or mentioned, did anybody else see anything? > > It was not announced on a mailing list (most spec edits aren't). > But some big ones are. Though, you Henri left one small hint at the bottom of a message with this subject (posted 15th of March): "xml:lang in the light of error frequencies". [1] There you added: As before, I think we should make zero-width image and iframe border conforming, HTML 4.01 Strict table attributes (except axis) conforming and make iframe width/height conforming. When I saw it, I almost wrote a note to this list about it. (The only thing I wonder about in that message, is when ?before? was.) ;-) 3 days later, it was added. [2] [...] > > is it just me or does the re-inclusion without any recent debate or > > apparent mention of it within the working group seem a bit odd (as > > far a WG process is concerned)? > > Not really. The headers attribute was included as the result of the > *research* and algorithm prototyping (mostly by Ben Millard and James > Graham) inspired by the previous debate in the WG. There was a delay > between the debate and the spec change due to the massive feedback > queue. > Many thank you-s to them. Perhaps it is about time starting to research the axis attribute? (In HTML4, axis belongs to the headers algorithm.) [1] http://www.w3.org/mid/6DC0CE30-7D1B-46CC-BFA4-C6816C4E6C03 at iki.fi [2] http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/000568.html -- leif halvard silli From hsivonen at iki.fi Fri Mar 21 12:34:13 2008 From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:34:13 +0200 Subject: [html4all] #headers back in HTML5 In-Reply-To: <47E3F506.7070201@malform.no> References: <55687cf80803210429j2154cbbyb4b16a65c6e92f8e@mail.gmail.com> <47E3F506.7070201@malform.no> Message-ID: <82B78910-F413-40ED-A157-A310C8104369@iki.fi> On Mar 21, 2008, at 19:48, Leif Halvard Silli wrote: > Henri Sivonen 08-03-21 13.05: >> On Mar 21, 2008, at 13:29, Steven Faulkner wrote: >>> I have been keeping an eye on the htmlwg list, didn't see this >>> announced or mentioned, did anybody else see anything? >> >> It was not announced on a mailing list (most spec edits aren't). > > But some big ones are. Hixie mentioned on IRC that an email is coming up but he isn't done with the edits yet. No conspiracy here. > Though, you Henri left one small hint at the bottom of a message with > this subject (posted 15th of March): "xml:lang in the light of error > frequencies". [1] There you added: > > As before, I think we should make zero-width image and iframe > border > conforming, HTML 4.01 Strict table attributes (except axis) > conforming and make iframe width/height conforming. > > When I saw it, I almost wrote a note to this list about it. (The only > thing I wonder about in that message, is when ?before? was.) ;-) "Before" was: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0305.html > 3 days later, it was added. [2] That's a coincidence. > Perhaps it is about time starting to research the axis attribute? Please do. My opinion about excluding axis is based on an assumption that it's too complex for authors to use and for users to query and that it hasn't been implemented widely if at all. Given how little implementation info Google turns up, axis seems to be a dead letter in HTML 4.01. -- Henri Sivonen hsivonen at iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ From rob at robburns.com Fri Mar 21 12:59:22 2008 From: rob at robburns.com (Robert J Burns) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:59:22 +0100 Subject: [html4all] #headers back in HTML5 Message-ID: <1FBE8509-B877-47AE-BB74-725ABB6BC23B@robburns.com> Just to add to a little to this conversation regarding table attributes and the restoration of the headers attribute. I think another result of the careful examination of these issues by the WG members months back was that scope attribute suffers from many of the same problems as the axis attribute. The scope attribute was never clearly defined and so neither implementations nor authors ever understood how to use or handle scope properly. I think now that the headers attribute is back, the need for the scope attribute vanishes. And given the inherent confusion in the specification of scope, it would be better if HTML5 simply dropped it all together. My concern is that our current editor becomes too rigidly and uncritically adds and removes committed parts of the language without any concern for the needs of users and authors. Take care, Rob On Mar 21, 2008, at 8:34 PM, Henri Sivonen wrote: > On Mar 21, 2008, at 19:48, Leif Halvard Silli wrote: >> Henri Sivonen 08-03-21 13.05: >>> On Mar 21, 2008, at 13:29, Steven Faulkner wrote: >>>> I have been keeping an eye on the htmlwg list, didn't see this >>>> announced or mentioned, did anybody else see anything? >>> >>> It was not announced on a mailing list (most spec edits aren't). >> >> But some big ones are. > > Hixie mentioned on IRC that an email is coming up but he isn't done = > > with the edits yet. > > No conspiracy here. > >> Though, you Henri left one small hint at the bottom of a message with >> this subject (posted 15th of March): "xml:lang in the light of error >> frequencies". [1] There you added: >> >> As before, I think we should make zero-width image and iframe = > >> border >> conforming, HTML 4.01 Strict table attributes (except axis) >> conforming and make iframe width/height conforming. >> >> When I saw it, I almost wrote a note to this list about it. (The only >> thing I wonder about in that message, is when =ABbefore=BB was.) ;-) > > "Before" was: > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0305.html > >> 3 days later, it was added. [2] > > That's a coincidence. > >> Perhaps it is about time starting to research the axis attribute? > > Please do. > > My opinion about excluding axis is based on an assumption that it's = > > too complex for authors to use and for users to query and that it = > > hasn't been implemented widely if at all. Given how little = > > implementation info Google turns up, axis seems to be a dead letter > in = > > HTML 4.01. > > -- = > > Henri Sivonen > hsivonen at iki.fi > http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List_HTML4all.org mailing list > http://www.html4all.org/wiki From faulkner.steve at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 13:55:36 2008 From: faulkner.steve at gmail.com (Steven Faulkner) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 20:55:36 +0000 Subject: [html4all] summary issue closed Message-ID: <55687cf80803231355j65ea03d7y9365a358b07c8bcf@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, in february Josh, raised an issue in the issue tracker [1] (via jgraham) about the dropping of the summary attribute, . He was preparing to discuss it at the teleconference a few weeks ago, but ran out of time (there has not been a teleconference since , so no chance for further discussion). We have discussed it privately since and thought it may be best to get PF WG to review the issue. Now the issue has been closed by the editor. So now he will have to re-raise the issue, which he didn't get chance to discuss in the first place, but '"without mentioning summary="" ' (as per [2]) what gives? any ideas? related email: [1] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32 [2] ISSUE-32 (table-summary): Include a summary attribute for tables? [HTML 5 spec] -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/pipermail/list_html4all.org/attachments/20080323/1158f788/attachment.html From faulkner.steve at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 09:55:38 2008 From: faulkner.steve at gmail.com (Steven Faulkner) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:55:38 +0000 Subject: [html4all] summary issue closed In-Reply-To: References: <55687cf80803231355j65ea03d7y9365a358b07c8bcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55687cf80803240955j4586820l25f706e4acb99aa4@mail.gmail.com> hi all, >Sorry to jump in here, but it seems there are some misunderstandings. your input is always welcome >If anyone wants to have a telecon, they don't have to wait for Dan or >Chris to announce one. Just speak to our W3C staff contact, Mike, and he >can arrange a telecon whenever. Indeed, I am sure our chairs are happy for >other people to use the regular telecon time even if they're not around to >chair themselves. All well, but I thought that there was some structure or process in place as far as telecon's were concerned. The usefulness of having a chair attending is that issues can be discussed with someone who (hopefully) understands the WG and W3C process and can advise on such matters. Some of us in the working group have been seeking to understand the best way to raise issues and have them discussed within the working group and if warranted, and consensus cannot be achieved, seek to bring the issue to a formal vote. It was suggested that one of the routes to officially raise issues was to get them listed in the issue tracker (which is what both Josh and I have done). What i would expect from this process is the opportunity to have an issue fully reviewed and not closed until all parties (WG members) involved agree on the outcome. Forgive me for misunderstanding the process, I didn't realise that raising an issue on the tracker was only a list item for the editor(s) to tick or cross at their discretion. On 23/03/2008, Ian Hickson wrote: > > > Sorry to jump in here, but it seems there are some misunderstandings. > > On Sun, 23 Mar 2008, Steven Faulkner wrote: > > > > in february Josh, raised an issue in the issue tracker [1] (via > > jgraham) about the dropping of the summary attribute, . He was preparing > to > > discuss it at the teleconference a few weeks ago, but ran out of time > (there > > has not been a teleconference since , so no chance for further > discussion). > > If anyone wants to have a telecon, they don't have to wait for Dan or > Chris to announce one. Just speak to our W3C staff contact, Mike, and he > can arrange a telecon whenever. Indeed, I am sure our chairs are happy for > other people to use the regular telecon time even if they're not around to > chair themselves. > > Please, feel free to take initiative! :-) > > > > We have discussed it privately since and thought it may be best to get > > PF WG to review the issue. Now the issue has been closed by the editor. > > That just means I looked at it and took into account all the feedback > raised so far. There hasn't been much research on the matter (indeed, > there hasn't been much discussion even); obviously if there is any new > information, such as a clear description of a problem that HTML5 doesn't > solve, I would be very happy to take it into account. > > > > So now he will have to re-raise the issue, which he didn't get chance to > > discuss in the first place, but '"without mentioning summary="" ' (as > > per [2]) > > Just to clarify, my request to not mention summary="" is merely a > restatement of earlier requests to very clearly separate the description > of the problem and the description of the proposed solutions (and > discussion of their pros and cons). In the past, we have had difficulty > separating the two topics (problem and solution), which makes it very > hard to do technically sound language design. (Just look at the namespace > thread recently for more examples of this.) > > -- > Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL > http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. > Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/pipermail/list_html4all.org/attachments/20080324/b15796ad/attachment.html From laura.lee.carlson at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 10:32:21 2008 From: laura.lee.carlson at gmail.com (Laura Carlson) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:32:21 -0500 Subject: [html4all] summary issue closed In-Reply-To: <55687cf80803240955j4586820l25f706e4acb99aa4@mail.gmail.com> References: <55687cf80803231355j65ea03d7y9365a358b07c8bcf@mail.gmail.com> <55687cf80803240955j4586820l25f706e4acb99aa4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbcaa0803241032h3e0c829pebfa7d121a8c8eba@mail.gmail.com> On February 15 I asked Dan: > - How and by whom is it determined when an issue is resolved? Dan responded: > Substantive issues are resolved by WG decision, which is typically > done with a survey where all WG participants get a week to respond. > > A few issues have been closed by noting that they're not > substantive; e.g. they're a dup of some other issue, or > that the issue was raised based on a misunderstanding. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Feb/0022.html Issue 32 was not resolved or closed. It was rejected: > Rejected by editor due to unclear problem description. [Ian Hickson]" http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32 Best Regards, Laura From faulkner.steve at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 12:55:22 2008 From: faulkner.steve at gmail.com (Steven Faulkner) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:55:22 +0000 Subject: [html4all] Understanding how JAWS reads text Message-ID: <55687cf80803271255s74e929e2p22d7b6e22b3e81fc@mail.gmail.com> wrote this to try to counter some misinformation from Ian Hickson that is being cited as fact. How JAWS reads text (http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=50) -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/pipermail/list_html4all.org/attachments/20080327/e184484e/attachment.html From bruce at brucelawson.co.uk Thu Mar 27 13:38:35 2008 From: bruce at brucelawson.co.uk (Bruce Lawson) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:38:35 +0000 Subject: [html4all] Understanding how JAWS reads text In-Reply-To: <55687cf80803271255s74e929e2p22d7b6e22b3e81fc@mail.gmail.co m> References: <55687cf80803271255s74e929e2p22d7b6e22b3e81fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 19:55 27/03/2008, Steven Faulkner wrote: >wrote this to try to counter some misinformation from Ian Hickson >that is being cited as fact. >How JAWS reads text >(http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=50) nice one Steve. b Bruce Lawson travellers tales, music, middle-aged grumblings at www.brucelawson.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/pipermail/list_html4all.org/attachments/20080327/2fedac91/attachment.html From Philip-and-LeKhanh at Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org Sun Mar 30 03:50:41 2008 From: Philip-and-LeKhanh at Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org (Philip TAYLOR) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 11:50:41 +0100 Subject: [html4all] "Semantic content isn't an end-goal of the HTML5 work." Message-ID: <47EF7081.2050501@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Just thought you might like to see the following, (heavily edited) extract, if you haven't been following the MathML debate : -------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 04:17:37 +0000 (UTC) From: Ian Hickson To: David Carlisle Cc: public-html at w3.org, www-math at w3.org Subject: Re: Exploring new vocabularies for HTML Semantic content isn't an end-goal of the HTML5 work. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' From rob at robburns.com Sun Mar 30 04:04:02 2008 From: rob at robburns.com (Robert J Burns) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:04:02 +0200 Subject: [html4all] "Semantic content isn't an end-goal of the HTML5 work." In-Reply-To: <47EF7081.2050501@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> References: <47EF7081.2050501@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Message-ID: Hi Philip et al, On Mar 30, 2008, at 12:50 PM, Philip TAYLOR wrote: > Just thought you might like to see the following, > (heavily edited) extract, if you haven't been > following the MathML debate : > -------- > On Mar 30, 2008, Ian Hickson wrote: > >> Semantic content isn't an end-goal of the HTML5 work. Yeah, not a big surprise to hear Ian say that. He's wants to bring the computer user the technological advancements of newsprint combined with the stylistic beauty of a manual typewriter. It's just so sad to watch this. The W3C has made great strides to make everything modular in a rather object oriented fashion (self- contained, polymorphic, etc.). This approach has great repercussions for more quickly and agilely pushing technology forward. Rather than embracing that approach, Ian wants to undo all of it so that he can have his own IanML. Take care, Rob