From laura.lee.carlson at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 11:16:44 2007 From: laura.lee.carlson at gmail.com (Laura Carlson) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 13:16:44 -0500 Subject: [html4all] Introductions or a Who's who of html4all (was Just curious) Message-ID: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> John Foliot wrote: >> Who *is* applegoddess at gmail.com? Jane Lee wrote: > Hi John, > I'm me. :) [snip Jane's nice introduction] Welcome, Jane. Glad to have you with us. Thanks so very much for posting an introduction. That's a great idea. All html4all new comers, and inaugural members [1] please feel free to post your own brief intro to the list! The following is mine. My name is Laura Carlson. I am employed at the University of Minnesota Duluth as an Information Technology Professional, working mainly in web design and development and specializing in web standards design and development, accessibility, CSS, HTML, usability, and information architecture. I've been a web designer for over a dozen years and worked in the university environment for over twenty years. Before that I was busy getting my masters degree and managing a couple corporations. I joined the HTML5 working Group in March 2007 after reading Ian Hickson's blog post where he said, "I encourage everyone interested in the development of HTML5 to take part. If you don't take part, and the language develops in a way you don't like, then you have but yourself to blame...Taking part in the group is not a big commitment. You can spend as much or as little time contributing; you don't need to read every e-mail on subjects you don't care about, you don't need to call in or attend face-to-face meetings. In fact, the W3C has stated in the group's charter that no binding decisions will be made at meetings; you are guaranteed equal say whether you are present or not." http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1173385976&count=1 I've tried to help out where and when I could within the HTML5 working Group (mainly tracking issues, wiki work). On some issues, I began emailing a group of accessibility folks within/outside of the WG. Yada, yada, yada. That lead to John graciously offering to a host a HTML5 watchdog listserv/wiki/blog which is now html4all.org. For more information about me visit "Ten questions for Laura Carlson" over at the Web Standards Group: http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/laura-carlson.cfm Linkedin info is at: http://www.linkedin.com/in/lauracarlson Best Regards, Laura [1] Inaugural html4all Members: Bruce Lawson Debi Orton Gez Lemon Gregory Rosmaita Jason White John Foliot Joshue O'Connor Laura Carlson Leif Halvard Silli Patrick Lauke Philip Taylor (Webmaster) Robert Burns Roger Johansson Steve Faulkner -- Laura L. Carlson From Philip-and-LeKhanh at Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org Sat Sep 1 11:43:30 2007 From: Philip-and-LeKhanh at Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org (Philip TAYLOR) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:43:30 +0100 Subject: [html4all] Introductionsm or a Who's who of html4all In-Reply-To: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46D9B2D2.4050101@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Philip TAYLOR (I capitalise my last name so as to avoid confusion with the "other" Philip Taylor who is also a member of the HTML 5 group). Professional webmaster for many years, prior to which I specialised in computer typesetting (TeX). A member of London University for about 35 years (Westfield College, Bedford College, Royal Holloway and Bedford New College). I care deeply about standards and accessibility, and am pleased that my College is at last starting to pay real attention to these. Very ambivalent about the whole HTML 5 issue, which I see as more of a rubber-stamping exercise for existing bad practice than a real attempt to define how HTML /should/ evolve. Given a choice, I'd throw the entire HTML WG baggage away and start again, using HTML 4.01 Strict as the starting point. Do not believe that uses of HTML other than for the creation of web pages (e.g., the use of HTML for e-mail) should influence the design of HTML. Believe that so-called "blogs" (what on earth was wrong with "web logs" ?) are simply vanity publishing brought into the 21st century, have never created one, and have no intentions of ever doing so. Pedant, possibly a dinosaur, definitely not a Luddite. Think that Corel should be d at mned to the fires of Hell for all eternity for killing off HoTMeTaL PRO after buying out SoftQuad. Reluctant convert to Dreamweaver, but still writes own JavaScript rather than replying on DW's so-called "behaviours". Lives in a Microsoft-based world (but will always use TeX in preference to Microsoft Word), believes that VMS was the finest operating system (and Algol 68 the finest programming language) yet invented. Looks at C programs with unconcealed incredulity. Wonders how Unix users stay sane (that is, if they do). Tends to get carried away when sending e-mail ... From foliot at wats.ca Sat Sep 1 12:13:29 2007 From: foliot at wats.ca (John Foliot) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 12:13:29 -0700 Subject: [html4all] Introductions or a Who's who of html4all (was Just curious) In-Reply-To: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004001c7eccc$31de8a60$0601a8c0@Piglet> Laura Carlson wrote: > All html4all new comers, and inaugural members [1] please feel free > to post your own brief intro to the list! The following is mine. John Foliot: In 1999, I left a 15 year career working for a major record label (Capitol Records/EMI) to pursue a new path: "The Internet". (I realized even then what the 'net was going to do to that industry...) This lead me to working at a corporate training company in Ottawa Canada, delivering a multitude of "internet" courses to primarily Canadian Civil Servants (Ottawa is the national capital). That year, the Canadian government was finalizing their draft "Common Look and Feel" requirements for federal web sites, and one key consideration was that all GoC (Government of Canada) sites were going to be mandated to Priority 2 compliance by 2001. The training company realized this was an opportunity and I was tasked with developing and delivering a one day training course for the company. I had already been a strong advocate of standards compliance and standards based development practice, and was keenly following the emergent work of the W3C's WAI (WCAG 1 was released in May of 1999), so it was kind of natural. I was also quite fortunate to be living in the same city as Chuck Letourneau, the then co-chair of the WAI (and the man responsible for having the Canadian government incorporate the WCAG into their Standards - the first country to do so !), who along the way became something of a mentor. That initial "web accessibility" course was first delivered in September of 1999. For the next 3 years, I was closely involved with both the training company (where, by the way, I also met and befriended Derek Featherstone) as well as working with/for Chuck Letourneau, doing hands-on training, testing, and outreach. When government funding strategies changed (Spring of 2002), Derek Featherstone and I established WATS.ca, to continue to provide these types of services to GoC clients. Through our involvement in the subject matter, and our committed participation in a number of emerging "web accessibility communities" (WAI-IG, WebAIM, gawds, Accessify, etc.), Derek and I managed to establish ourselves as experienced consultants in the field, and provided numerous consulting services to both private industry as well as federal departments and agencies in Canada. Changes in our personal lives saw WATS.ca as a functioning consultancy drop off in late 2005; however by summer of 2006 I was (and am still) working at Stanford University in California as an Academic Technology Specialist; I am the lead resource for web accessibility on campus. I believe that an Accessible Internet requires more than just technique and technical capacity, that there is a need for empathy and understanding of the alternative perspective of others, a social factor that is sometimes forgotten in many discussions; especially those that are under way at the HTML 5 WG. As an advocate for those communities that are affected directly by what we as content creators do or do not do, I will continue to speak out whenever I see an injustice being perpetrated. My current frustration with this lack of vision on the part of the HTML 5 WG is what prompted me to enable html4all, where the discussion will cover both technical and social requirements, and where accessibility advocates have a warmer reception then is oft afforded at the html5 list-serve. (...and I needed to channel my frustration towards something positive, and to shut up a bit - my mouth [and/or poison pen] gets me into trouble sometimes...) JF From joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie Sat Sep 1 12:35:02 2007 From: joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie (Joshue O Connor) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:35:02 +0100 Subject: [html4all] Introductions or a Who's who of html4all In-Reply-To: <46D9B2D2.4050101@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> References: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> <46D9B2D2.4050101@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Message-ID: <46D9BEE6.2050903@cfit.ie> I am senior accessibility constant with the National Council for the Blind of Ireland Centre for Inclusive Technology (NCBI CFIT). We are advocates for web standards, accessible services and provide auditing, training, consultancy and user testing services (using our dedicated observation lab). We work mostly with government and other public sector bodies. I really enjoy what I do and no two days are the same. Am also nearly finished my first book which is about the open source CMS, Joomla! and accessibility (which should be out in December). I was only looking for a job - and before I knew it I had a career! My own background is in graphic design, originally for print, Then I got into the web, new media training and apres dot com bubble crash got a job working as an IT trainer with people with disabilities which I was delighted to do as I was getting sick of the buy, buy, sell, sell of the private sector (which was never really me anyway). This exposed me to Assistive Technology and I became regional AT person for a national Irish disability service provider. Then did stint as a developer for a supported employment project. During this (very fulfilling) time I got into web accessibility (about 5 years ago) and the rest is history as they say. I am now happily running around telling off people who should know better when their code is sloppy and I am *amazed* still at the amount of developers who don't really know or understand HTML and treat it as something that 'the editor does'. I really believe in lifelong learning and am currently studying for a computer science degree in my spare time. I like to read a lot - when I have the time - and am currently into medieval fiction. I also run a small record label (www.techrecord.net) and play a mean blues guitar and have been known to growl into a microphone occasionally - but this can sometimes frighten small children. I also like puppies and walks in the country he, he. Like Laura, I also joined the HTML 5 WG as a response to Hixies' mail, and have been in shock ever since. I feel slightly ambivalent at this stage towards the whole thing, as many of you do, and I am unsure if all of this effort is worthwhile. Don't get me wrong - am not throwing in the towel or anything - but I do agree with Philip that the group should at least have started with HTML 4 Strict and worked from there (so much for paving the cowpaths). I reckon that I will be advocating the use of HTML 4 for a time to come and leaving version 5 for the birds. Sin e (Irish for 'There it is') Josh From rob at robburns.com Sat Sep 1 13:27:35 2007 From: rob at robburns.com (Robert Burns) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 15:27:35 -0500 Subject: [html4all] accessing the subscriber lit. Message-ID: <385A772F-D3B9-411A-9349-1D61DDB767B6@robburns.com> Hell 4all, We're trying to track down a problem with the list serve. Laura's trying to access the subscriber list but is getting denied after authenticating. Could everyone else check to see if you can access the subscriber list and let us know. That way we'll know whether its an issue with Laura's account or more system-wide. The page for accessing the subscriber list is at (login towards the bottom of the page) under the heading "List_HTML4all.org Subscribers"): Thanks. Take care, Rob From oradnio at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 13:29:15 2007 From: oradnio at gmail.com (Debi Orton) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 16:29:15 -0400 Subject: [html4all] Introduction Message-ID: <46d9cc4b.0f86460a.6e7d.fffffba6@mx.google.com> Hi all, My name is Debi Orton. I became interested in accessibility because of a strong family history of diabetes (on both sides of my family) and because I watched my mother lose her eyesight, her kidneys, and eventually her life to complications of the disease. I also watched her struggle to try and remain independent in a world that did not seem to believe a blind person could or should be independent. My brother and I are both diabetic now, and I have glaucoma. In my day job, I'm the Manager of IT for the NYS Governor's Office of Employee Relations (GOER). As my agency's liaison to the NYS Forum, an organization fostering information delivery and networking for technologists in the public sector, I am co-chair of the Forum's IT Accessibility Committee. I am granted liberal time from my primary responsibilities to work on IT accessibility initiatives, both with the Forum, and with the State's CIO's office. I have been active in the NYS accessibility initiative since 1998, and have been contributing to policy development since that time. New York's initiative is based on a policy, a hybrid (of U.S. 508 and WCAG 1.0), 14-point mandatory technology standard, and best practices. As is most other organizations, little or no training is provided in web standards, usability, or accessibility. The only training provided for NYS web developers has come from the Forum IT Accessibility Committee. Fortunately, our Committee has a relatively even mix of people who are comfortable presenting information, and people who are more comfortable working behind the scenes. This year, our new governor issued an Executive Order that all public meetings be webcast on the Internet, and our Committee has had a large role in making sure that all webcasts are captioned -- either live, or within 7 days of the live event. It's been a learning curve, since few of us had any experience with multimedia. Our Committee's current project is to oversee development of a single-point validation utility that can do some rudimentary code correction. We have funding for development and the first year of operation, and will need to secure ongoing funding beyond that. Like Laura, I saw an invitation to participate, and did so in the hope that we'd see greater accessibility in the new version. I'm a little disillusioned with the process so far...a lot of cacophony and little progress -- and very little civility. Nonetheless, I recognize the validity of Ian's comment that if you don't work for change, you have no right to complain about what form that change takes. In my spare time, I run the online literary journal flashquake (http://www.flashquake.org) and do web site design and maintenance for a number of writers. I also make jewelry, and practice archery and knife throwing. I live in Upstate New York, on the banks of the Hudson, with four cats and a groundhog. Well, the groundhog isn't exactly tame...but she's been around so long I feel I know her. So that's about all there is to me...I'm pleased to be in such interesting company! Debi Orton/ oradnio at gmail.com From Philip-and-LeKhanh at Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org Sat Sep 1 13:41:53 2007 From: Philip-and-LeKhanh at Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org (Philip TAYLOR) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:41:53 +0100 Subject: [html4all] accessing the subscriber lit. In-Reply-To: <385A772F-D3B9-411A-9349-1D61DDB767B6@robburns.com> References: <385A772F-D3B9-411A-9349-1D61DDB767B6@robburns.com> Message-ID: <46D9CE91.7030205@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Trying now, but first need to get a password (?reminder?); don't think I have ever set or used on on this list ... Robert Burns wrote: > Hell 4all, > > We're trying to track down a problem with the list serve. Laura's > trying to access the subscriber list but is getting denied after > authenticating. Could everyone else check to see if you can access > the subscriber list and let us know. From Philip-and-LeKhanh at Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org Sat Sep 1 13:43:26 2007 From: Philip-and-LeKhanh at Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org (Philip TAYLOR) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:43:26 +0100 Subject: [html4all] accessing the subscriber lit. In-Reply-To: <385A772F-D3B9-411A-9349-1D61DDB767B6@robburns.com> References: <385A772F-D3B9-411A-9349-1D61DDB767B6@robburns.com> Message-ID: <46D9CEEE.9060907@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> List accessed successfully; 18 non-digested members. From oradnio at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 13:45:08 2007 From: oradnio at gmail.com (Debi Orton) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 16:45:08 -0400 Subject: [html4all] accessing the subscriber lit. In-Reply-To: <46D9CE91.7030205@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> References: <385A772F-D3B9-411A-9349-1D61DDB767B6@robburns.com> <46D9CE91.7030205@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Message-ID: <46d9cf9a.1087460a.459b.fffff7f9@mx.google.com> Hi Robert, I don't recall setting one either. Debi Orton At 04:41 PM 9/1/2007, you wrote: >Trying now, but first need to get a password (?reminder?); >don't think I have ever set or used on on this list ... > >Robert Burns wrote: > > Hell 4all, > > > > We're trying to track down a problem with the list serve. Laura's > > trying to access the subscriber list but is getting denied after > > authenticating. Could everyone else check to see if you can access > > the subscriber list and let us know. > >_______________________________________________ >List_HTML4all.org mailing list >http://www.html4all.org/wiki From laura.lee.carlson at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 13:51:53 2007 From: laura.lee.carlson at gmail.com (Laura Carlson) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 15:51:53 -0500 Subject: [html4all] accessing the subscriber lit. In-Reply-To: <46D9CE91.7030205@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> References: <385A772F-D3B9-411A-9349-1D61DDB767B6@robburns.com> <46D9CE91.7030205@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Message-ID: <1c8dbcaa0709011351x1dde8ae8he93a71cbdead1c9b@mail.gmail.com> I reset my password and can get in now. Thanks. Best Regards, Laura -- Laura L. Carlson On 9/1/07, Philip TAYLOR wrote: > Trying now, but first need to get a password (?reminder?); > don't think I have ever set or used on on this list ... > > Robert Burns wrote: > > Hell 4all, > > > > We're trying to track down a problem with the list serve. Laura's > > trying to access the subscriber list but is getting denied after > > authenticating. Could everyone else check to see if you can access > > the subscriber list and let us know. -- Laura L. Carlson From foliot at wats.ca Sat Sep 1 14:28:35 2007 From: foliot at wats.ca (John Foliot) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 14:28:35 -0700 Subject: [html4all] accessing the subscriber lit. In-Reply-To: <46D9CE91.7030205@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Message-ID: <004e01c7ecdf$0ebae520$0601a8c0@Piglet> Philip TAYLOR wrote: > Trying now, but first need to get a password (?reminder?); don't > think I have ever set or used on on this list ... > Try the default one: Advocate! JF From oradnio at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 15:12:05 2007 From: oradnio at gmail.com (Debi Orton) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:12:05 -0400 Subject: [html4all] accessing the subscriber lit. In-Reply-To: <385A772F-D3B9-411A-9349-1D61DDB767B6@robburns.com> References: <385A772F-D3B9-411A-9349-1D61DDB767B6@robburns.com> Message-ID: <46d9e438.2487460a.310a.4018@mx.google.com> Hi Rob, I was able to get in using the default password. Debi Orton At 04:27 PM 9/1/2007, you wrote: >Hell 4all, > >We're trying to track down a problem with the list serve. Laura's >trying to access the subscriber list but is getting denied after >authenticating. Could everyone else check to see if you can access >the subscriber list and let us know. That way we'll know whether its >an issue with Laura's account or more system-wide. > >The page for accessing the subscriber list is at (login towards the >bottom of the page) under the heading "List_HTML4all.org Subscribers"): > > > >Thanks. > >Take care, >Rob > >_______________________________________________ >List_HTML4all.org mailing list >http://www.html4all.org/wiki From Philip-and-LeKhanh at Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org Sat Sep 1 15:25:48 2007 From: Philip-and-LeKhanh at Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org (Philip TAYLOR) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 23:25:48 +0100 Subject: [html4all] accessing the subscriber lit. In-Reply-To: <004e01c7ecdf$0ebae520$0601a8c0@Piglet> References: <004e01c7ecdf$0ebae520$0601a8c0@Piglet> Message-ID: <46D9E6EC.203@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Well, the one it sent me (and which worked) was considerably less memorable than that ! && P. -------- John Foliot wrote: > Try the default one: Advocate! From rob at robburns.com Sat Sep 1 16:29:45 2007 From: rob at robburns.com (Robert Burns) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 18:29:45 -0500 Subject: [html4all] accessing the subscriber lit. In-Reply-To: <46D9E6EC.203@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> References: <004e01c7ecdf$0ebae520$0601a8c0@Piglet> <46D9E6EC.203@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Message-ID: Hello 4all, You should be able to set your password and then set it to anything you'd like right on that page. Laura, could you tell the list how you did that? I'm having trouble getting it to happen since I'm already logged in. It's also possible to unsubscribe and then quickly re- subscribe to set your password. You may also have an email from the list serve in your mailboxes that lists your current password. Take care, Rob On Sep 1, 2007, at 5:25 PM, Philip TAYLOR wrote: > Well, the one it sent me (and which worked) > was considerably less memorable than that ! > > && P. > -------- > John Foliot wrote: > >> Try the default one: Advocate! > > _______________________________________________ > List_HTML4all.org mailing list > http://www.html4all.org/wiki From rob at robburns.com Sat Sep 1 16:38:55 2007 From: rob at robburns.com (Robert Burns) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 18:38:55 -0500 Subject: [html4all] changing list serve options Message-ID: <30BFE7F0-D18A-4539-8AB6-C555D5317E97@robburns.com> Hello 4all, OK, I found the options page. You should be able to manage your password and other options here. Change the pieces inside the angle brackets to the information you used to subscribe to the list (leave the "--at--" as is as a literal) http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/mailman/options/list_html4all.org/ --at-- Take care, Rob From laura.lee.carlson at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 09:39:19 2007 From: laura.lee.carlson at gmail.com (Laura Carlson) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 11:39:19 -0500 Subject: [html4all] accessing the subscriber lit. In-Reply-To: References: <004e01c7ecdf$0ebae520$0601a8c0@Piglet> <46D9E6EC.203@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Message-ID: <1c8dbcaa0709020939v4a1fff80ld15e86ad716734f9@mail.gmail.com> Rob wrote: > You should be able to set your password and then set it to anything > you'd like right on that page. Laura, could you tell the list how you > did that? I changed it from the options page not the listinfo page. The options page is at: http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/mailman/options/list_html4all.org On the "Change Your Password" section on the options page: 1. Enter a "New password". 2. Reenter it again to confirm. 3. Click or select the "Change My Password" button. Best Regards, Laura -- Laura L. Carlson On 9/1/07, Robert Burns wrote: > Hello 4all, > > You should be able to set your password and then set it to anything > you'd like right on that page. Laura, could you tell the list how you > did that? I'm having trouble getting it to happen since I'm already > logged in. It's also possible to unsubscribe and then quickly re- > subscribe to set your password. You may also have an email from the > list serve in your mailboxes that lists your current password. > > Take care, > Rob > > > > On Sep 1, 2007, at 5:25 PM, Philip TAYLOR wrote: > > > Well, the one it sent me (and which worked) > > was considerably less memorable than that ! > > > > && P. > > -------- > > John Foliot wrote: > > > >> Try the default one: Advocate! -- Laura L. Carlson From oedipus at hicom.net Sun Sep 2 12:14:17 2007 From: oedipus at hicom.net (Gregory J. Rosmaita) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 15:14:17 -0400 Subject: [html4all] unabridged version of my WF2 clarification request Message-ID: <20070902190948.M77323@hicom.net> aloha, all! if any of you are interested in the questions i put to the chairs and editors vis ? vis Web Forms 2.0 versioning, you can check out -- and, ostensively, follow the thread when it develops -- a fuller inquiry into WF2, versioning, and the continued development of a submission submitted to W3C in an outside forum, and whether that development has any merit as far as W3C is concerned if WF2 hasn't been conscientiously pushed to w3c web space, you can do so using the following URI: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Sep/ gregory. ------------------------------------------------------------------- CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision. -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary ------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory J. Rosmaita, oedipus at hicom.net UBATS - United Blind Advocates for Talking Signs: http://ubats.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From skeegan at htctu.net Sun Sep 2 12:49:59 2007 From: skeegan at htctu.net (skeegan at htctu.net) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 15:49:59 -0400 Subject: [html4all] Introductions or a Who's who of html4all (was Just curious) In-Reply-To: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070902154959.0ees48yskw8og8sc@sheridan.swishmail.com> Laura Carlson wrote: > All html4all new comers, and inaugural members [1] please feel free > to post your own brief intro to the list! The following is mine. Sean Keegan: I am the Web Accessibility Instructor at the High Tech Center Training Unit for the California Community Colleges. A bit about the HTCTU - we provide training, technical support, and research to the CA community college system in the areas of assistive computer technology, creation of alternate media, and Web accessibility. We work under a "train-the-trainer" model to identify best practices and provide guidance to over 100 colleges to improve access to educational materials for students with disabilites in our system. As the Web Accessibility Instructor, I handle just about anything that goes on the Web or involves Web-based technology. I provide feedback and develop trainings on HTML accessibility, CSS, video captioning, PDF documents, Web evaluation/repair tools, and assistive technologies (as it relates to Web content). Most of the time I get brought into the conversation after a product is purchased/implemented/created at the campus and the question is "How do we make this accessible?" Not the ideal process, but the reality in that there is often a lack of understanding and support at the local college level. Most are not attempting to create inaccessible resources, there is just not the appropriate level of awareness or technical infrastructure. John F. and I have some good conversations about Web accessibility in the higher education environment and suggested participating in a "positive-focused" working group. Plus, he promised this would be more fun than free beer. Take care, sean From lhs at malform.no Sun Sep 2 13:33:04 2007 From: lhs at malform.no (Leif Halvard Silli) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:33:04 +0200 Subject: [html4all] Introductions or a Who's who of html4all (was Just curious) In-Reply-To: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <<8f6b30a7fcb6d170281aa77f6b197b2d@10013.local>> Hi - thanks Jane and Laura for starting it off - and for the other introductions! This is about me. I'm married. And when I met my wife, she had a b/w Macintosh Classic - and a cat (who turned 15 this year - with 1 corner teeth and 2 pills a day, he is still going strong). We bought the most multingual Word Processor/Text Editor for Mac at that time - Nisus Writer (NW), which would introduce me to GREP/RegEx and Unicode/Script problems and a little bit macro-programming. (At times, I still need to fire up that old devil in Mac OS Classic - amongst other things I have a HTML Macro package for it which I, to this day, think have features that I have not seen anywhere else.) Together we run a company that is dealing mainly with the teaching of Russian to students with a Scandinavian language background. We develope our own study material to a large extent. My wife has written her own ?beginners book in Russian?, which I set in XHTML - (using Prince XML - which has allowed me to skip focusing on e.g. LaTeX.). Unfortunately, I am almost entirely autodidact in computerstuff. I am glad to see that you, the others in this group, are not! Of I education, I was set out to become a theologian from the University of Oslo. That hasn't happened yet. I also have a background in ecological farming. Eco-Farming is like Acessible HTML: It is more interesting. I find that authoring in HTML is surprisingly difficult ... WYSIWYG-wise. Recently I have asked my wife to work in Amaya. But I am somewhat surprised to find many problems that I thought NVU was alone about ... (Nesting and unnesting - plust the stupid thing of creating multipl BR instead of Paragraphs.) There are many tools for creating small snippets and short pages. But little that uses HTML as ?document format? and with which it is possible to author in a relaxed way. Instead it too often becomes like working with WordPerfect :-D (nosing into the "mark-up" of WP document.) I am a quite experienced with Freeway (www.softpress.com) - a tool with low cred factor, I suppose. But which have many unique (typo)graphic features and also a great interest amongst some its users for creating standards supporting web pages. But nowadays, I work mostly in text editors. Norwegian is the only language, probably, which has 3 ISO language codes to represent itself: NN for the Nynorsk variant. NB for the "competing" variant, and NO covering both. In reality it often seems as if NO is used for the competing variant (Google do it e.g.) - a "cowpath" that should be made the norm! Well, as you understand, I am jealous spokesperson for of Nynorsk . I do not have any background especially in Accessible HTML, but like Gregory once said - when I rephrase him a little - accessibility is not an island, it borders on Multilingual HTML. Someone at PublicHTML said that writing specifications was just another form of programming. If so, then I hope I can have a role at least as bug finder. I feel I have done a lot of beta testing and feature suggesting through the times - on open as well as proprietary source programs. (I have filed bugs on Opera, Safari, Mozilla, but first and foremost of iCab). I have also done localisation of software (e.g. iCab) and ?web applications? (e.g. Google). It was reading Anne van Kesteren's blog that took me to PublicHTML. He, like Ian, encouraged people to join both WHATwg and publicHTML - something which I did - almost simultaneously - in May. Perhaps what I learned from reading Anne can be boiled down to the realisation that XHTML isn't more semantic than HTML. -- leif halvard silli From lhs at malform.no Sun Sep 2 17:05:33 2007 From: lhs at malform.no (Leif Halvard Silli) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 02:05:33 +0200 Subject: [html4all] (Video now online) User Testing of Accessibility Features In-Reply-To: <46D8235D.50601@cfit.ie> Message-ID: <9aebb47c8bb6cbae1a2daa38d8ecf0da@10013.local> On 2007-08-31 16:19:09 +0200 Joshue O Connor wrote: > Hello html4all, > > The user testing video of the CFIT tests for header/id > combinations, at summary and @longdesc are available from our servers at: > > http://www.cfit.ie/html5_video/final/ > > The files are large (60 Mbs +) but the quality is good and the sound > came out well (I was a little worried) :-) > > I would appreciate some feedback from a more empathic audience before > I > post to this to the WG. Also it will give me a better idea as to how > to > present them. In truth they are simply footage of each of the > methods/attributes in use, with some ad hoc discussion thrown in. I I > am > aware that we may however have to dress it up in some more > 'organically > valid' or 'statistically relevant' form to satisfy the group. > > Thoughts and feedback are very welcome. Hi - I am listening/looking at the headers/id video now. It appears to be 25 minutes long. The user is testing several table examples. It would be great if the video could be split into smaller videos that only showed the testing of one particular table. Probably you will present the different tables well in your report, so we can see what is being tested - and if on then could just load the video dealing with that table. (Again, this was just the header/id video. Probably the same issue with the others.) The sound is a bit low, even if it is good quality - but it will probably work fine. -- leif halvard silli From joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie Mon Sep 3 07:29:20 2007 From: joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie (Joshue O Connor) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:29:20 +0100 Subject: [html4all] (Video now online) User Testing of Accessibility Features In-Reply-To: <9aebb47c8bb6cbae1a2daa38d8ecf0da@10013.local> References: <9aebb47c8bb6cbae1a2daa38d8ecf0da@10013.local> Message-ID: <46DC1A40.2060209@cfit.ie> Hi Leif, > It >> would be great if the video could be split into smaller videos that >> only showed the testing of one particular table. Thats a good idea. It will also make the file size smaller, making them quicker to download and digest. Thanks for the feedback Josh From sfaulkner at paciellogroup.com Mon Sep 3 08:37:00 2007 From: sfaulkner at paciellogroup.com (Steve Faulkner) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 16:37:00 +0100 Subject: [html4all] Introductions or a Who's who of html4all (was Just curious) In-Reply-To: <8061460031330625330@unknownmsgid> References: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> <8061460031330625330@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <55687cf80709030837x608b0ce6t80db1da860590965@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, about me, i am australian, but now live in the UK I have been professionally in web accessibility for the past 6 years. i am married with a 2 year old daughter (clara), my wife (blanca) is spanish (from the north) people say she looks norwegian. I have developed some accessibility testing tools (e.g. web accessibility toolbar) favourite musician : frank zappa I was not intending upon getting caught up in the HTML WG, but have become seriously concerned about the apparent lack of understanding in regards to accessibility that has been exhibited by some of the key members of the WG. On 02/09/07, Leif Halvard Silli wrote: > > Hi - thanks Jane and Laura for starting it off - and for the other > introductions! > > This is about me. I'm married. And when I met my wife, she had a b/w > Macintosh Classic - and a cat (who turned 15 this year - with 1 corner teeth > and 2 pills a day, he is still going strong). We bought the most multingual > Word Processor/Text Editor for Mac at that time - Nisus Writer (NW), which > would introduce me to GREP/RegEx and Unicode/Script problems and a little > bit macro-programming. (At times, I still need to fire up that old devil in > Mac OS Classic - amongst other things I have a HTML Macro package for it > which I, to this day, think have features that I have not seen anywhere > else.) Together we run a company that is dealing mainly with the teaching of > Russian to students with a Scandinavian language background. We develope our > own study material to a large extent. My wife has written her own ?beginners > book in Russian?, which I set in XHTML - (using Prince XML - which has > allowed me to skip focusing on e.g. LaTeX.). > > Unfortunately, I am almost entirely autodidact in computerstuff. I am glad > to see that you, the others in this group, are not! Of I education, I was > set out to become a theologian from the University of Oslo. That hasn't > happened yet. I also have a background in ecological farming. Eco-Farming is > like Acessible HTML: It is more interesting. > > I find that authoring in HTML is surprisingly difficult ... > WYSIWYG-wise. Recently I have asked my wife to work in Amaya. But I am > somewhat surprised to find many problems that I thought NVU was alone about > ... (Nesting and unnesting - plust the stupid thing of creating multipl BR > instead of Paragraphs.) There are many tools for creating small snippets and > short pages. But little that uses HTML as ?document format? and with which > it is possible to author in a relaxed way. Instead it too often becomes like > working with WordPerfect :-D (nosing into the "mark-up" of WP document.) > > I am a quite experienced with Freeway (www.softpress.com) - a tool with > low cred factor, I suppose. But which have many unique (typo)graphic > features and also a great interest amongst some its users for creating > standards supporting web pages. But nowadays, I work mostly in text editors. > > Norwegian is the only language, probably, which has 3 ISO language codes > to represent itself: NN for the Nynorsk variant. NB for the "competing" > variant, and NO covering both. In reality it often seems as if NO is used > for the competing variant (Google do it e.g.) - a "cowpath" that should be > made the norm! Well, as you understand, I am jealous spokesperson for of > Nynorsk . I do not have any background > especially in Accessible HTML, but like Gregory once said - when I rephrase > him a little - accessibility is not an island, it borders on Multilingual > HTML. > > Someone at PublicHTML said that writing specifications was just another > form of programming. If so, then I hope I can have a role at least as bug > finder. I feel I have done a lot of beta testing and feature suggesting > through the times - on open as well as proprietary source programs. (I have > filed bugs on Opera, Safari, Mozilla, but first and foremost of iCab). I > have also done localisation of software (e.g. iCab) and ?web applications? > (e.g. Google). > > It was reading Anne van Kesteren's blog that took me to PublicHTML. He, > like Ian, encouraged people to join both WHATwg and publicHTML - something > which I did - almost simultaneously - in May. Perhaps what I learned from > reading Anne can be boiled down to the realisation that XHTML isn't more > semantic than HTML. > -- > leif halvard silli > > > _______________________________________________ > List_HTML4all.org mailing list > http://www.html4all.org/wiki > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/pipermail/list_html4all.org/attachments/20070903/aaffbb7e/attachment.html From laura.lee.carlson at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 15:05:49 2007 From: laura.lee.carlson at gmail.com (Laura Carlson) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:05:49 -0500 Subject: [html4all] Introductions or a Who's who of html4all (was Just curious) In-Reply-To: <55687cf80709030837x608b0ce6t80db1da860590965@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> <8061460031330625330@unknownmsgid> <55687cf80709030837x608b0ce6t80db1da860590965@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbcaa0709031505m1f61eeebk557647751e923995@mail.gmail.com> Just in case you missed these previous interviews with some html4all members over at the web standards group... Last summer Russ Weakley did a nice interview with Steve. Steve talked about accessibility, the Web Accessibility toolbar, the Web Accessibility Tools Consortium, title attributes, AJAX and WCAG2. http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/steve-faulkner.cfm In 2005, Patrick discussed photography, CSS, the Zen Garden, accessibility, SMIL and the WASP accessibility Task Force with Russ: http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/patrick-lauke.cfm In 2004, Roger talked about web standards, round corners, development mistakes, ampersands and more. http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/roger-johansson.cfm All good stuff :-) Best Regards, Laura On 9/3/07, Steve Faulkner wrote: > Hi all, > about me, > i am australian, but now live in the UK > I have been professionally in web accessibility for the past 6 years. > i am married with a 2 year old daughter (clara), my wife (blanca) is spanish > (from the north) people say she looks norwegian. > I have developed some accessibility testing tools (e.g. web accessibility > toolbar) > favourite musician : frank zappa > I was not intending upon getting caught up in the HTML WG, but have become > seriously concerned about the apparent lack of understanding in regards to > accessibility that has been exhibited by some of the key members of the WG. > > > On 02/09/07, Leif Halvard Silli wrote: > > Hi - thanks Jane and Laura for starting it off - and for the other > introductions! > > > > This is about me. I'm married. And when I met my wife, she had a b/w > Macintosh Classic - and a cat (who turned 15 this year - with 1 corner teeth > and 2 pills a day, he is still going strong). We bought the most multingual > Word Processor/Text Editor for Mac at that time - Nisus Writer (NW), which > would introduce me to GREP/RegEx and Unicode/Script problems and a little > bit macro-programming. (At times, I still need to fire up that old devil in > Mac OS Classic - amongst other things I have a HTML Macro package for it > which I, to this day, think have features that I have not seen anywhere > else.) Together we run a company that is dealing mainly with the teaching of > Russian to students with a Scandinavian language background. We develope our > own study material to a large extent. My wife has written her own ?beginners > book in Russian?, which I set in XHTML - (using Prince XML - which has > allowed me to skip focusing on e.g. LaTeX.). > > > > Unfortunately, I am almost entirely autodidact in computerstuff. I am glad > to see that you, the others in this group, are not! Of I education, I was > set out to become a theologian from the University of Oslo. That hasn't > happened yet. I also have a background in ecological farming. Eco-Farming is > like Acessible HTML: It is more interesting. > > > > I find that authoring in HTML is surprisingly difficult ... WYSIWYG-wise. > Recently I have asked my wife to work in Amaya. But I am somewhat surprised > to find many problems that I thought NVU was alone about ... (Nesting and > unnesting - plust the stupid thing of creating multipl BR instead of > Paragraphs.) There are many tools for creating small snippets and short > pages. But little that uses HTML as ?document format? and with which it is > possible to author in a relaxed way. Instead it too often becomes like > working with WordPerfect :-D (nosing into the "mark-up" of WP document.) > > > > I am a quite experienced with Freeway (www.softpress.com) - a tool with > low cred factor, I suppose. But which have many unique (typo)graphic > features and also a great interest amongst some its users for creating > standards supporting web pages. But nowadays, I work mostly in text editors. > > > > Norwegian is the only language, probably, which has 3 ISO language codes > to represent itself: NN for the Nynorsk variant. NB for the "competing" > variant, and NO covering both. In reality it often seems as if NO is used > for the competing variant (Google do it e.g.) - a "cowpath" that should be > made the norm! Well, as you understand, I am jealous spokesperson for of > Nynorsk . I do not have any background > especially in Accessible HTML, but like Gregory once said - when I rephrase > him a little - accessibility is not an island, it borders on Multilingual > HTML. > > > > Someone at PublicHTML said that writing specifications was just another > form of programming. If so, then I hope I can have a role at least as bug > finder. I feel I have done a lot of beta testing and feature suggesting > through the times - on open as well as proprietary source programs. (I have > filed bugs on Opera, Safari, Mozilla, but first and foremost of iCab). I > have also done localisation of software ( e.g. iCab) and ?web applications? > (e.g. Google). > > > > It was reading Anne van Kesteren's blog that took me to PublicHTML. He, > like Ian, encouraged people to join both WHATwg and publicHTML - something > which I did - almost simultaneously - in May. Perhaps what I learned from > reading Anne can be boiled down to the realisation that XHTML isn't more > semantic than HTML. > > -- > > leif halvard silli > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List_HTML4all.org mailing list > > http://www.html4all.org/wiki > > > > > > -- > with regards > > Steve Faulkner > Technical Director - TPG Europe > Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium > > www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org > Web Accessibility Toolbar - > http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html > _______________________________________________ > List_HTML4all.org mailing list > http://www.html4all.org/wiki > -- Laura L. Carlson From sfaulkner at paciellogroup.com Tue Sep 4 02:43:30 2007 From: sfaulkner at paciellogroup.com (Steve Faulkner) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:43:30 +0100 Subject: [html4all] Fwd: Mobile Accessibility Task Force In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55687cf80709040243nac14c34p93ce297a76634bec@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Alan Chuter Date: 04-Sep-2007 09:59 Subject: Mobile Accessibility Task Force I am announcing this group which has now started and might interest you. It will be working on a document about the accessibility aspects of the Mobile Web Best Practices. The scope of the TF is to produce a document containing a mapping between Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 (WCAG) and the Mobile Web Best Practices (MWBP). A very preliminary outline draft of the mapping document is publicly available [1]. The TF is member-only but there is a public mailing list [2] that you can use to comment. best regards, Alan Chuter [1] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/mok_wcag.html [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-access/ -- Alan Chuter Accessibility Consultant Technosite (Fundaci?n ONCE) achuter at technosite.es www.technosite.es Tel. +34 91 121 03 35 Skype: achuter1 If you are unable to reply to this message because of spam filter, try my alternative address achuter.technosite at yahoo.com. Si no puede contestar a este mensaje por culpa del filtro de spam, intente con mi direcci?n alternativa achuter.technosite at yahoo.com. -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/pipermail/list_html4all.org/attachments/20070904/0bf808d4/attachment.html From sfaulkner at paciellogroup.com Wed Sep 5 13:31:16 2007 From: sfaulkner at paciellogroup.com (Steve Faulkner) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:31:16 +0100 Subject: [html4all] from hixies log - Fire, a two-hour weekend, accessibility, and other rants Message-ID: <55687cf80709051331g3abbe5f0id77ad21d6ccf17be@mail.gmail.com> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1188895731&count=1 -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/pipermail/list_html4all.org/attachments/20070905/cd654451/attachment.html From redux at splintered.co.uk Wed Sep 5 14:34:14 2007 From: redux at splintered.co.uk (Patrick H. Lauke) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:34:14 +0100 Subject: [html4all] from hixies log - Fire, a two-hour weekend, accessibility, and other rants In-Reply-To: <55687cf80709051331g3abbe5f0id77ad21d6ccf17be@mail.gmail.com> References: <55687cf80709051331g3abbe5f0id77ad21d6ccf17be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DF20D6.1080602@splintered.co.uk> Steve Faulkner wrote: > http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1188895731&count=1 > I liked Mike Davies' reply to it http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/access/ScreenReadersAWebDeveloperFailure Particularly his closing section about web developers using screen readers was exactly what was going through my mind when reading Hixie's post...if there was a nice commenting facility on his blog, I'd have pointed at the first few minutes of my recent "Too much accessibility" rant http://www.splintered.co.uk/documents/presentations/psf_accessibility_08.08.2007/ (my anecdote on well meaning, yet clueless, web devs using screen readers for the first time) P -- Patrick H. Lauke ______________________________________________________________ re?dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ______________________________________________________________ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ______________________________________________________________ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ ______________________________________________________________ From redux at splintered.co.uk Wed Sep 5 15:06:00 2007 From: redux at splintered.co.uk (Patrick H. Lauke) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:06:00 +0100 Subject: [html4all] Introductions or a Who's who of html4all (was Just curious) In-Reply-To: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DF2848.5070901@splintered.co.uk> Laura Carlson wrote: > All html4all new comers, and inaugural members [1] please feel free to > post your own brief intro to the list! The following is mine. Coming in a bit late - surfacing for air after a few particularly busy weeks - I'll just point to this, which covers most of it *grin* http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/patrick-lauke.cfm -- Patrick H. Lauke ______________________________________________________________ re?dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ______________________________________________________________ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ______________________________________________________________ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ ______________________________________________________________ From redux at splintered.co.uk Wed Sep 5 15:09:11 2007 From: redux at splintered.co.uk (Patrick H. Lauke) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:09:11 +0100 Subject: [html4all] Introductions or a Who's who of html4all (was Just curious) In-Reply-To: <1c8dbcaa0709031505m1f61eeebk557647751e923995@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbcaa0709011116w31047cfduc58f14667fbc1266@mail.gmail.com> <8061460031330625330@unknownmsgid> <55687cf80709030837x608b0ce6t80db1da860590965@mail.gmail.com> <1c8dbcaa0709031505m1f61eeebk557647751e923995@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DF2907.9050008@splintered.co.uk> Laura Carlson wrote: > Just in case you missed these previous interviews with some html4all > members over at the web standards group... Doh! Sorry for the repeat linkage to the WSG interview... P -- Patrick H. Lauke ______________________________________________________________ re?dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ______________________________________________________________ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ______________________________________________________________ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ ______________________________________________________________ From foliot at wats.ca Wed Sep 5 15:16:27 2007 From: foliot at wats.ca (John Foliot) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:16:27 -0700 Subject: [html4all] from hixies log - Fire, a two-hour weekend, accessibility, and other rants In-Reply-To: <55687cf80709051331g3abbe5f0id77ad21d6ccf17be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004101c7f00a$6aceb7a0$643d42ab@Piglet> This isn't just my opinion. It was clear at the festival that the sizeable deaf community present there was fully enjoying the music. The presence of sign language interpreters made them feel part of the event, and conveyed everything that they wanted conveyed. Could it be then that images on sites like Fickr might be useful (enjoyed) by the blind or low-vision? (Insist on alt text, don't make it optional) That new elements like