From oedipus at hicom.net Mon Dec 3 10:28:11 2007 From: oedipus at hicom.net (Gregory J. Rosmaita) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 18:28:11 +0000 Subject: [html4all] ACTION-24: suggest accessibility improvement for "Big issue" marker [FWD] In-Reply-To: <20071203172354.04C081F0C@victory.cnc.net> References: <20071203172354.04C081F0C@victory.cnc.net> Message-ID: <20071203182622.M4191@hicom.net> aloha, for those of you not subscribed to the issue tracker list, or who don't track the tracker, here is a forward of my "pending review" tracking report: ---------- Forwarded Message ----------- From: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" To: , Sent: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 12:23:54 -0500 (EST) Subj: ACTION-24: suggest accessibility improvement for "Big issue" marker BACKGROUND: Since the style rules defined for .issue and .big-issue are identical, no one (sighted or otherwise) can determine from the styling what is an "issue" and what is a "big issue" The offer/attempt to add context using CSS-generated text (for example, using :before and :after to generate content which marks the beginning of a "big issue" and the end of a "big issue") is appreciated, but support for CSS-generated text is extremely spotty to non-existent; most GUI screen readers, which have to scrape the screen (technical term: create an on-screen model) of the page (in effect, a snapshot of the page as rendered at a particular time) in order to scrape the generated content, so as to expose it to a screen reader or refreshable braille display. Since AT and UA support for CSS-generated content is poor to spotty, research is being conducted to ascertain what works with today's technologies. To this end, i have begun to mount some tests of generated content to gather hard data on support for generated content in screen readers - consult: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0062.html to which the following simple test document is attached: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/att- 0062/GeneratedContentAccess.html the results of tests of this resource with various operating systems, assistive technologies, and user agents are archived in the following thread: http://www.w3.org/mid/20071120023818.M89422 at hicom.net CONCLUSIONS: What would be of great assistance to the overall accessibility of the HTML5 Editor's Draft would be to use semantic markers in the text of the HTML5 draft, indicating inserted and deleted text, using and , as well as considering encasing asides, ToDo, and other markers which currently use visual conventions to express their function, in the EM and/or STRONG elements, so that there are structural markers which are capable of communicating the state of the text -- rendered visually via the style sheet -- declaratively. of course, the EM and STRONG elements (and their sub-classed children) can be styled in whatever manner the editor desires, as long as that styling is tied firmly to semantic markers, such as EM and STRONG and not SPAN) -- EM and STRONG have meaning (for example, an ISSUE is a string of text that should be denoted by an EM in the document source and styled however the editor wants, whilst a "big issue" should be marked using the STRONG element to identify it declaratively (rather than merely stylistically) as a "Big Issue" RESOLUTION: Since the style rules defined for .issue and .big-issue are identical, no one (sighted or otherwise) can determine from the styling what is an "issue" and what is a "big issue". The differentiation/identification of an "Issue: " and a "Big Issue: " should, therefore, appear in the document source not as pseudo-text, but as actual text strings: otherwise, how is one to differentiate between the two? STYLESHEET ADDITIONS: .issue, .big-issue { color: #E50000; background: white; border: solid red; padding: 0.5em; margin: 1em 0; } .issue-label { font-style: normal; font-weight: bold; } .big-issue-label { font-weight: bold; } MARKUP EXAMPLES:

Issue: This paragraph illustrates non- generated labelling text contained within the current style rules for "issue"

Big Issue: This paragraph illustrates non-generated labelling text contained within the current style rules for the class "big-issue"

Pending Review, this closes ISSUE-24 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/24 note that a new issue ISSUE-26 accessibility/usability of HTML5 and W3C default stylesheets (http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/25) has been created to address other accessibility and usability issues with the stylesheet for HTML5 as well as W3C default stylesheets. -- "He who lives on Hope, dies farting." -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack -- Gregory J. Rosmaita, unagi69 at concentric.net Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/ ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- From oedipus at hicom.net Mon Dec 3 10:38:12 2007 From: oedipus at hicom.net (Gregory J. Rosmaita) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 18:38:12 +0000 Subject: [html4all] a11y issues with HTML5 draft and W3C default stylesheets Message-ID: <20071203183637.M67101@hicom.net> in an auto-generated post to the HTML WG's emailing list, archived at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0043.html i addressed some general accessibility issues with the HTML5 editors' draft and W3C default stylesheets in general... in an offlist response, phillip taylor asked: Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:26:46 +0000 From: "Philip Taylor (Webmaster)" To: oedipus at hicom.net Subj: Re: ISSUE-26: accessibility/usability of HTML5 and W3C default stylesheets [W3C publications] Gregory, why does this need to be done ? > In the editor's draft of HTML5, there are 6 CSS style > rules which need to be translated from hexadecimal > to named colors I understand > 3. the inability of screen readers and other AT to detect background and foreground colors using hexadecimal or RGB values as a bug with several developers of open source assistive technologies (such as Orca and NVDA) and such functionality has been submitted as a "feature request" to major commercial AT developers; currently the capacity to detect font color changes to effect a vocal characteristics change is not supported by any of the screen reader developers or implementors -- however, the lead of the Orca project, Willie Walker, agreed that the capacity to detect changes defined with hex or rgb notation is an eminently implementable feature for a screen reader, and it > has been entered into the Orca bug queue but what effect does it have on the end user ? ** Phil. to which i responded (again offlist) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 17:41:06 +0000 From: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" To: "Philip Taylor (Webmaster)" Subject: Re: ISSUE-26: accessibility/usability of HTML5 and W3C default stylesheets [W3C publications] All headers aloha, phil! the problem is that one cannot set numerical values to set aural or tactile rules which respond to the hexadecimal or rgb values of a background and foreground color combination -- using color alone, even through the agency of stylesheets -- clearly violates the WCAG proscription against using color alone to convey meaning; simply because the color-coding is achieved via stylesheets, does not make the color-coding any more accessible than if it had been defined using the deprecated FONT element -- what is missing is the ability of ATs to allow the user to assign specific values for foreground and background color changes which signify that a string of text is an example, an issue, a big issue, inserted text, deleted text, comments/asides, etc. that is why i suggest a two-pronged approach: 1. use declarative markup attached to a specific style rule to indicate status of the text so marked 2. working with AT vendors to support recognition of numerical color values these issues are larger than just the HTML5 Editor's Draft's stylesheet; most DIFF-marked versions of W3C documents use color alone to indicate changes between drafts -- if the color changes aren't perceptible to a screen reader, then the state/status of the text so marked cannot be communicated to the aural or tactile or monochrome monitor or color-blind user... simply using stylesheets to achieve seperation of presentation from content isn't sufficient -- the styling has no meaning to a non-visual user or that user's AT does that answer your question? if not, let me know, as i will probably be fielding quite a few similar inquiries -- thanks, gregory. in reply (again, offlist) philip stated: Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:44:06 +0000 From: "Philip Taylor (Webmaster)" To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" Subj: Re: ISSUE-26: accessibility/usability of HTML5 and W3C default stylesheets [W3C publications] OK, that part I understood (I think !); what I did not understand is what is gained by asking the editors to eschew hex or rgb notation in favour of named colours ... ** Phil. to which i replied: Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 17:52:44 +0000 From: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" To: "Philip Taylor (Webmaster)" Subj: Re: ISSUE-26: accessibility/usability of HTML5 and W3C default stylesheets [W3C publications] aloha, phil! that's why: a) i didn't mark the big issue versus issue action as closed, as i realize that there is going to be some-to-a-lot of negotiating over the ramifications of my findings http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/24 b) i don't want to limit anyone's palette, but since this is an accessibility issue, and since trying to discern pseudo-semantics expressed via style rules is a documented problem with today's technologies, the W3C has an obligation, under WCAG, to make a reasonable accomodation -- i am more than willing to meet anyone half-way and not object to the use of numerical color values AS LONG AS there is actual markup in the document source that serves the same purpose -- semantic markers of a section of content with special meaning or status... c) i'm not a fan of the named colors chosen as named colors, but i don't have any control over that particular issue, which is why i have begun working on a proposed stylesheet revision via the html4all wiki: http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/DraftStyleSheetIssues d) should we be having this discussion on html4all? gregory. philip replied to my question as to whether we ought to be having this discussion on html4all, thus: Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:00:35 +0000 From: "Philip Taylor (Webmaster)" To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" , Laura Carlson d) should we be having this discussion on html4all? I had begun to fear that, following Laura's sad departure, all activity on HTML4All had ceased :-( I know that that is the last thing that Laura would have wanted, but there has been no evidence of any activity whatsoever following her announcement. Yes, let's set a good example and resume this discussion in open forum :-) Laura cc'd, so she can see that we have not abandoned our task. ** Phil. so, now that you know the background, anyone who has comments, observations, criticisms, corrections, etc. please post them to the list so that the widest possible spectrum of opinions can be brought to bear on this discussion, thanks, gregory. ---------------------------------------------------------------- CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory J. Rosmaita, oedipus at hicom.net Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- From joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie Tue Dec 4 01:56:00 2007 From: joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie (Joshue O Connor) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 09:56:00 +0000 Subject: [html4all] a11y issues with HTML5 draft and W3C default stylesheets In-Reply-To: <20071203183637.M67101@hicom.net> References: <20071203183637.M67101@hicom.net> Message-ID: <47552430.5090704@cfit.ie> Hi Gregory, Thanks for the mails on this issue. I am currently parsing them and will track any discussion here, and I have some questions below. The issue seems to boil down to lack of current support for psuedo elements in UA's and this is compounded by the suggested use of very similar declarations in the CSS. However is this use of .issue and .big issue style rules something that you came up with the make a point or are they a recommended way of presenting this CSS generated text? 1) The use of CSS generated text is new to me. Can you point to anywhere else in the wild where we may find other examples of this, or are these examples bleeding edge test cases? Is it rather like using: #page_main_content a[href^="/"]:after { content: " (http://www.cfit.ie" attr(href) ") "; } to show URLs when using print styles that are not displayed on the webpage? 2) Why are we looking at CSS at all to generate text? 3) Will using this method bypass the DOM completely? 4) What in principle is this proposed method is useful for? Cheers Josh From redux at splintered.co.uk Tue Dec 4 11:07:23 2007 From: redux at splintered.co.uk (Patrick H. Lauke) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:07:23 +0000 Subject: [html4all] a11y issues with HTML5 draft and W3C default stylesheets In-Reply-To: <47552430.5090704@cfit.ie> References: <20071203183637.M67101@hicom.net> <47552430.5090704@cfit.ie> Message-ID: <4755A56B.3040409@splintered.co.uk> Joshue O Connor wrote: > 1) The use of CSS generated text is new to me. Can you point to anywhere > else in the wild where we may find other examples of this, or are these > examples bleeding edge test cases? Is it rather like using: > > > > #page_main_content a[href^="/"]:after { > content: " (http://www.cfit.ie" attr(href) ") "; > } > > Yeah, that's what's mostly used today, but the possibilities are wide open to do things like writing out images and all sorts of things (doing a "real" image replacement via CSS...I believe only Opera supports this sort of thing at the moment - see http://lofotenmoose.info/css/synopsis/picturehead/) > 2) Why are we looking at CSS at all to generate text? I think the answer to that should be: because authors can and will use this at some point to generate actual content. They shouldn't (because of all the separation of content and presentation ethos), but they will anyway...so we should make sure that screenreader users aren't the ones missing out because of this. P -- Patrick H. Lauke ______________________________________________________________ re?dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ______________________________________________________________ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ______________________________________________________________ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ ______________________________________________________________ From oedipus at hicom.net Tue Dec 4 20:31:15 2007 From: oedipus at hicom.net (Gregory J. Rosmaita) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 04:31:15 +0000 Subject: [html4all] a11y issues with HTML5 draft and W3C default stylesheets In-Reply-To: <47552430.5090704@cfit.ie> References: <20071203183637.M67101@hicom.net> <47552430.5090704@cfit.ie> Message-ID: <20071205042612.M74145@hicom.net> aloha, josh! apologies for the brevity of my (initial) reply, but i have to answer an emessage from dan with the subject line: "let's leave editorial issues out of the tracker" http://www.w3.org/2002/02/mid/1196738806.3767.60.camel at pav but i wanted to at least touch upon the topics/questions you raised in relation to CSS-generated content the type of CSS-generated text to which i referred is that defined in the CSS 2.0 technical recommendation, in particular, section 12, "Generated Content, Numbering, and Lists": http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/generate.html in a concept which is closely akin to the cue-before and cue-after aural properties of CSS2: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/aural.html#propdef-cue-before http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/aural.html#propdef-cue-after through the use of the ":before" and ":after" pseudo-elements, it is possible to -- quite literally -- add "content": .issue:before { content: "Issue: "; } .example:after { content: "end Example"; } or, in an example from section 12 of CSS2: BODY:after { content: "The End"; display: block; margin-top: 2em; text-align: center; } Note that an audio user agent would speak the words "The End" after rendering the rest of the BODY content. in the area of accessibility and general usability, these pseudo-elements can be used to add contextual text to a document instance via a stylesheet, information which "normally" doesn't need explicit markers -- such as text which is styled uniquely to communicate to the viewer contextual information about a block or string of text by creating a visual shorthand which is then reused on the page (for example, this is an example, this is text marked for deletion, etc.) -- so, it has been viewed (and was viewed when CSS2 was in review) that it is an "unobtrusive" means of adding contextual information to documents for users, without affecting the aesthetics of the visually rendered document instance... i think that the UAAG example illustrates the concept from a number of facets -- a textual string, marked with the "lang" attribute to declaratively express that that string of text is in a different language than the natural language declared for the page -- in many cases, the user agent and/or operating system may not support the character-set for the string of text marked as thai, and may only be able to render only visual garbage in place of individual thai glyphs, so the user doesn't readily know anything about the string of text, other than that it is unintelligible... a quick and easy means of providing a repair mechanism for such a scenario is to explicitly mark the text with CSS-generated text, such as "Being Thai" and "End Thai" -- or, in the case of the HTML5 draft, "Issue" and "Big Issue" (although as i have pointed out, since the style rules for both .issue and .big-issue are the same, no one can tell the difference, and only some of us can tell that there is an issue by the red box containing red text on a white background, AND, as i've also pointed out, i'd rather have issues and big issues explicitly marked up in the document source of the draft, the former with EM and the latter with STRONG, as a reinforcement of the concept of what EM and STRONG actually semantically signify, rather than the common misconception that EM equals italics, and STRONG bold) the problem, of course, is that CSS-generated text is NOT included in the DOM -- something i've been complaining about to anyone who'll listen (and plenty who don't want to listen), since the days of drafting the first round of the WAI troika/trinity -- if pseudo-elemental information is going to be used to, for example, control the punctuation and symbols in a list, so that that list has the structure and typography of a legislative document, or to provide content in response to a user or script activated/initiated event, or as a repair mechanism for documents that rely on color alone to convey context, then CSS-generated text MUST be included in the DOM (especially the "DOM Core"), so that it is programmatically available to an AT and/or user agent; i failed to get such a requirement into UAAG 1.0, but during the TPAC sessions of the UAWG, it was agreed that in UAAG 2.0, whenever content is generated, either by CSS or script, it must either be included in a UAAG compliant browser's DOM or exposed directly to the appropriate accessibility API for communication to the user via an AT CSS-generated content could/should also be used in conjunction with actual semantically meaningful elements, such as INS and DEL, which SHOULD be used in each editor's draft to indicate new text and text marked for deletion -- and, of course, there should be an explicit documentation of the stylistic conventions used in the draft in the introductory materials i'm neither promoting nor panning the use of CSS-generated text -- although i have no reservations formally stating for the record that i vastly prefer CSS-generated (and, hence, user-controlable) content to scripted content -- but am merely attempting to discern the advantages and shortcomings of all CSS-generated content in relation to today's technology; in particular, those ATs and user agents that are available for use and are in use now -- MSIE, as many of you may know, does NOT support CSS pseudo-elements, for example, and the research i've been conducting via wai-xtech shows very weak support for exposition of CSS- generated content in existing configuration options (browser plus operating system plus assistive technology) of course, i am merely scratching the surface of the issue with this hurriedly composed post, but i hope that what i've written (a) makes sense and (b) helps provide some context for what i am hoping will be a collaborative effort that will benefit not only the HTML5 draft, but all W3C templates, as well as applying techniques documented in WCAG2 to the W3C style guide, in order to ensure that all W3C publications are as accessible as possible by default... gregory. ------------------------------------------------------------ The more things are forbidden, the more popular they become. -- Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ Gregory J. Rosmaita: oedipus at hicom.net Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/ Oedipus' Online Complex: http://my.opera.com/oedipus ------------------------------------------------------------ From joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie Wed Dec 5 01:18:33 2007 From: joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie (Joshue O Connor) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 09:18:33 +0000 Subject: [html4all] a11y issues with HTML5 draft and W3C default stylesheets In-Reply-To: <4755A56B.3040409@splintered.co.uk> References: <20071203183637.M67101@hicom.net> <47552430.5090704@cfit.ie> <4755A56B.3040409@splintered.co.uk> Message-ID: <47566CE9.4000200@cfit.ie> Patrick H. Lauke wrote: > Joshue O Connor wrote: > >> 1) The use of CSS generated text is new to me. Can you point to anywhere >> else in the wild where we may find other examples of this, or are these >> examples bleeding edge test cases? Is it rather like using: >> >> >> >> #page_main_content a[href^="/"]:after { >> content: " (http://www.cfit.ie" attr(href) ") "; >> } >> >> > > Yeah, that's what's mostly used today, but the possibilities are wide > open to do things like writing out images and all sorts of things (doing > a "real" image replacement via CSS...I believe only Opera supports this > sort of thing at the moment - see > http://lofotenmoose.info/css/synopsis/picturehead/) Thanks for that Patrick. It makes sense to me now. I also like the Rendered by, Opera 8.0. Destroyed by Internet Explorer, Firefox addendum :-) >> 2) Why are we looking at CSS at all to generate text? > > I think the answer to that should be: because authors can and will use > this at some point to generate actual content. They shouldn't (because > of all the separation of content and presentation ethos), but they will > anyway...so we should make sure that screenreader users aren't the ones > missing out because of this. Sounds like a plan. Cheers Josh From joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie Wed Dec 5 01:23:19 2007 From: joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie (Joshue O Connor) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 09:23:19 +0000 Subject: [html4all] a11y issues with HTML5 draft and W3C default stylesheets In-Reply-To: <20071205042612.M74145@hicom.net> References: <20071203183637.M67101@hicom.net> <47552430.5090704@cfit.ie> <20071205042612.M74145@hicom.net> Message-ID: <47566E07.5040502@cfit.ie> Hi Gregory, Thanks for the detailed reply. I will parse and respond asap. Cheers Josh From oedipus at hicom.net Wed Dec 5 08:23:35 2007 From: oedipus at hicom.net (Gregory J. Rosmaita) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 16:23:35 +0000 Subject: [html4all] a11y issues with HTML5 draft and W3C default stylesheets In-Reply-To: <47566E07.5040502@cfit.ie> References: <20071203183637.M67101@hicom.net> <47552430.5090704@cfit.ie> <20071205042612.M74145@hicom.net> <47566E07.5040502@cfit.ie> Message-ID: <20071205162114.M28877@hicom.net> aloha, josh! you wrote, quote: > Thanks for the detailed reply. I will parse and respond asap. unquote actually, that was the readers' digest ultra-condensed version; you know the old joke about the readers' digest condensed version of the bible, don't you? it's titled "Abridged Too Far"... thanks for all the mental cycles you and others are devoting to this inquiry and attempt to spread the gospel of WCAG throughout the W3C publication process... gregory. -------------------------------------------------------------- BIGOT, n. One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you do not entertain. -- Ambrose Bierce -------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory J. Rosmaita: oedipus at hicom.net Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/ Oedipus' Online Complex: http://my.opera.com/oedipus/ United Blind Advocates for Talking Signs: http://ubats.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------- From joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie Wed Dec 5 11:16:36 2007 From: joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie (Joshue O Connor) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:16:36 +0000 Subject: [html4all] a11y issues with HTML5 draft and W3C default stylesheets In-Reply-To: <20071205162114.M28877@hicom.net> References: <20071203183637.M67101@hicom.net> <47552430.5090704@cfit.ie> <20071205042612.M74145@hicom.net> <47566E07.5040502@cfit.ie> <20071205162114.M28877@hicom.net> Message-ID: <4756F914.4070709@cfit.ie> Gregory said: > that was the readers' digest ultra-condensed version; > you know the old joke about the readers' digest condensed version > of the bible, don't you? it's titled "Abridged Too Far"... Thats a new one on me :-) > thanks for all the mental cycles you and others are devoting to > this inquiry and attempt to spread the gospel of WCAG throughout > the W3C publication process.. Not at all. There are others on this list, like yourself and John F who are certainly going through a lot more. I am merely a workaholic :-) Big up and respect to you all. Josh From joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie Fri Dec 21 08:40:41 2007 From: joshue.oconnor at cfit.ie (Joshue O Connor) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:40:41 +0000 Subject: [html4all] Happy Xmas Message-ID: <476BEC89.508@cfit.ie> A very happy Xmas to everyone. Hope y'all have a good break. Cheers Josh From chaals at opera.com Sun Dec 23 04:54:05 2007 From: chaals at opera.com (Charles McCathieNevile) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:54:05 +0100 Subject: [html4all] Happy Xmas In-Reply-To: <476BEC89.508@cfit.ie> References: <476BEC89.508@cfit.ie> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:40:41 +0100, Joshue O Connor wrote: > A very happy Xmas to everyone. Hope y'all have a good break. Merry Humbug to you and yours - and to everyone else and theirs as well. I am looking forward to curling up with a laptop and a bunch of long-postponed paperwork :( cheers Chaals -- Charles McCathieNevile Opera Software, Standards Group je parle fran?ais -- hablo espa?ol -- jeg l?rer norsk http://my.opera.com/chaals Try Opera 9.5: http://snapshot.opera.com From Philip-and-LeKhanh at Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org Sun Dec 23 05:03:24 2007 From: Philip-and-LeKhanh at Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org (Philip TAYLOR) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:03:24 +0000 Subject: [html4all] Happy Xmas In-Reply-To: <476BEC89.508@cfit.ie> References: <476BEC89.508@cfit.ie> Message-ID: <476E5C9C.9020005@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Indeed. A Merry Christmas to us all, one and all. (Tho' it may be a cold one : the central heating system has just failed !). ** Phil. From lhs at malform.no Sun Dec 23 10:09:22 2007 From: lhs at malform.no (Leif Halvard Silli) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 19:09:22 +0100 Subject: [html4all] Happy Xmas In-Reply-To: <476BEC89.508@cfit.ie> References: <476BEC89.508@cfit.ie> Message-ID: <476EA452.1060900@malform.no> Seasonal greetings to each and everyone! Leif Halvard From ecrire at catherine-roy.net Sun Dec 23 14:15:43 2007 From: ecrire at catherine-roy.net (zara) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:15:43 -0500 Subject: [html4all] FYI Message-ID: <0JTI00D82WI91H60@VL-MH-MR002.ip.videotron.ca> An article by Joe Clark today about HTML5 called "They shoot standardistas, don't they?" : http://blog.fawny.org/2007/12/23/janefonda/ Best regards, Catherine -- Catherine Roy www.catherine-roy.net No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.6/1193 - Release Date: 22/12/2007 2:02 PM From faulkner.steve at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 12:13:43 2007 From: faulkner.steve at gmail.com (Steven Faulkner) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 20:13:43 +0000 Subject: [html4all] Happy Xmas In-Reply-To: <476BEC89.508@cfit.ie> References: <476BEC89.508@cfit.ie> Message-ID: <55687cf80712241213n470ac8b0id0fc4eadcad793fb@mail.gmail.com> To all, have a good one steve On 21/12/2007, Joshue O Connor wrote: > A very happy Xmas to everyone. Hope y'all have a good break. > > Cheers > > Josh > > > _______________________________________________ > List_HTML4all.org mailing list > http://www.html4all.org/wiki > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html